The modern form propagated by Marx did away with, killed or made slaves on the collectives, with the peasants. Marxist revolution my ass, this is a crack down on independence going on to this day.
I like the Plato references proves this is a centuries old process of hierarchy - to the benefit of a few.
Revolution in modern form is when these fascists have holes in the heads, one at a time, here and there overtime, they being afraid to be in the open at any time.
There is no revolution.., yet.
There is a great disconnect between the socialism that is a doctrine and the socialism that actually exists. Yet one has led to the other. - How about these fascists are experts at using descriptive words to hide intentions. Like, accuse others of what they themselves of guilty of, or claim to be what they are not to hide intentions. Simple marketing as taught at the fascist owned universities.
Plato said the philosophers, because they are men of such high virtue and intelligence, should have complete liberty and unlimited power (because, obviously, such men would use that liberty and power for the good of the state). But they may also have to lie to the people to get certain things done - this too, was virtuous. But for the guardian and the artisans and peasants, they need to be under the dictates of the philosophers who know what is best for them and the state.
I think we can see the 'manifestation' of the fascist and the socialist states are difficult to differentiate. Again, the disconnect between theory and practice.
My view is a socialist state would be egalitarian, which is impossible. So what the fascists desire is not socialism. Its the same old propaganda to blame something other than the cause.
The Republic sounds like a diabolical social order (unless you were a 'philosopher' at the top tier or maybe a well respected guardian). Don't worry, you haven't missed much. The ancient mythology is so interesting and says so much about our psyche - which is why I guess Jung plumbed the depths of those early stories to discover foundational elements of our humanity.
Thank you so much for the beginning of this distillation on socialism. I am thankful for you well-read men! I had almost forgotten about Plato’s “Monitors”, much like our Oligarchs and censoring factions within our nation. I am looking forward to the next.
Delamer Duverus, in “The Golden Reed”, gave us a pattern for living in the City, a City of Mind, where nothing comes before God, in that everyone lives according to His will. He lays out the entirety of society. Some may think that living with His will is a force of His will, but we have found that it is not so. I had a painter friend who DD asked to paint us a mandala which had many facets of our understanding in it. It was to be a memorial to my late husband. When he finished the rather detailed project, which was immaculate except for one mistake, he said he had never had so much fun painting a project before. When we asked DD about the mistake, because the project was so beautiful and perfect, He chuckled and said, “No one is perfect but God.”
It is not my intention to usurp your essays, Winston, so feel free to delete this. I am compelled of the Spirit to share. I can post the entire chapter if you want.
The Power of the Cube (Cube of Minds)
There can be no rich, or poor in the City of Duverus, for the wealth of the City is its people. An individual’s personal wealth will be according to their time and effort in behalf of the City and its inhabitants, but the Earth gives of its goodness so that life may survive, therefore; we do not have the right to possess that which the Earth has given freely, or set a price on the daily bread of the individual within the City.
Every inhabitant will receive his daily bread, and his place of refuge in return for his presence in the City, and nothing else shall be asked of him in return. If any inhabitant of the City desires more than his place of refuge and his daily bread, he may spend of his personal wealth in exchange for his desires. His only personal wealth will be his time, but no inhabitant can spend more time for his desires than he has to offer, and only the time that is his can he spend. An hour is an hour, and a day is a day, therefore; an hour is equal to an hour, and no more.
The value of an hour for internal exchange will be determined by the wealth of the City, divided by the sum of the time of all the inhabitants; but no value can be set upon an inhabitant’s daily bread or place of residence. The value of time credit past can be used as an exchange for working time present, to charge against an individual’s account, and placed to the account of the one who performs the work, according to time spent at the labor. No inhabitant can therefore, have more time accredited to his account than he has spent in the City, and only the time he has spent in labor, for the City, or for other inhabitants of the City; and no inhabitant can transfer his credits for time spent to anyone in the City for any other reason than work performed in his behalf. The reason for this should be obvious. The wealth of the individual is determined by the wealth of the City, and although some may have a claim to a larger portion of the City’s wealth, due to their own efforts, all of the provocations that lead men into temptation are removed, and those traits that lead men into discord become unnecessary and ridiculous, for there is nothing to be gained by them except laughter, when they are intended to provoke.
In the City of Duverus men will work because they shall enjoy their work, and enjoy the beauty of the creations of their own hands, and there will be no work done in fear, or vanity. Men will work because they will feel the need to create and because they feel the need to give of themselves to the City of which they are a part.
Jenny this is an interesting proposal but I'm not sure how it would work practically. Say I'm an emergency department surgeon. You come into the emergency room in cardiac arrest from the ambulance. I'm called in as the team are prepping you on the table - after my many years of experience and countless hours of study I know exactly what to do and instruct my team to do what has to be done to bring you back from the brink of death. Thankfully the revival is successful, you are alive - I was there for all of 15 minutes before being called away to another emergency.
That's 15 minutes of time value.
Assuming the value of time is fixed, which it seems to be in the above theory, then I've just been credited with a quarter hour time value.
Now I happen to be working away from my home town and am staying at a hotel. At that hotel, when I left for the hospital, a maid came in and made my bed, it took her 15 minutes. It should have taken her 5 minutes but she is 17, new to the job, and has absolutely no experience whatsoever.
Regardless, she has now been credited with a quarter hour time value.
So the expert emergency department doctor who has just saved a life is rewarded equally to the beginner maid who made his bed.
...and me, reading and responding to your comment is also rewarded the same - unless I think about the question for another 15 minutes and respond, thus doubling my income from the emergency department doctor.
I'm certain there are some socialist who would say this is absolutely just - total equality - but is it really?
Are both jobs required in the City? Is the garbage man's job just important as yours though less technical and skilled? Do you like what you do? Do you do what you do just for the money because in our system of broken fiscal policies you must? In the City of Mind life is not about keeping our head above the water financially. We do what we do under God's guidance because He knows us better than we know ourselves, and we will enjoy it, it will contribute to our community, and it will satisfy us. In The Gospel of Thomas it says, "Jesus says, 'My yoke is excellent, my authority sweet, and you will find rest for yourselves.'" He keeps us free from fear, hate, shame, greed, lust, guilt and prejudice. Thus, we have peace in our community.
One day Bab the prophet gathered the adult members of the Family together and said that in the future in the City of Mind there would be a crystal. Crystals hold memories and understanding. He said if someone began to stray in his thinking or doing which would lead to committing a sin, then the Crystal would help reign him in and help him to change his course. The people in the Family didn't like the thought of a crystal being able to control them and they discharged the idea. I wasn't a part of the family at the time, but my husband told me the story and I realized that this "crystal" was already into play. It was our conscience.
I guess I take a polar opposite view of humanity and society, to Marx and Plato. I think humanity is anarchic at it's core, that we are self-organizing based on necessity, like nature striving after diversity, that we don't need anyone to rule over us. But control freaks seem better at writing about their vision for society.
Is there any definition of socialism, or comparison of socialism vs. communism, vs. fascism, vs. monarchy etc. It seems that Shafarevich saw all different systems as the same.
The modern form propagated by Marx did away with, killed or made slaves on the collectives, with the peasants. Marxist revolution my ass, this is a crack down on independence going on to this day.
I like the Plato references proves this is a centuries old process of hierarchy - to the benefit of a few.
Revolution in modern form is when these fascists have holes in the heads, one at a time, here and there overtime, they being afraid to be in the open at any time.
There is no revolution.., yet.
There is a great disconnect between the socialism that is a doctrine and the socialism that actually exists. Yet one has led to the other. - How about these fascists are experts at using descriptive words to hide intentions. Like, accuse others of what they themselves of guilty of, or claim to be what they are not to hide intentions. Simple marketing as taught at the fascist owned universities.
Plato said the philosophers, because they are men of such high virtue and intelligence, should have complete liberty and unlimited power (because, obviously, such men would use that liberty and power for the good of the state). But they may also have to lie to the people to get certain things done - this too, was virtuous. But for the guardian and the artisans and peasants, they need to be under the dictates of the philosophers who know what is best for them and the state.
Its a perfect system when the people that are subjugated learn to love an elite inspired degraded position.
I think we can see the 'manifestation' of the fascist and the socialist states are difficult to differentiate. Again, the disconnect between theory and practice.
My view is a socialist state would be egalitarian, which is impossible. So what the fascists desire is not socialism. Its the same old propaganda to blame something other than the cause.
Thank you. Very much enjoyed it and look forward for the next part.
My "classic" education was confined to Greek and Roman myths and
fiction with a touch of philosophy. Never read Plato's "Republic" to my shame
so I really appreciate your essay. I was born and grew up in Poland, left mid '82.
The Republic sounds like a diabolical social order (unless you were a 'philosopher' at the top tier or maybe a well respected guardian). Don't worry, you haven't missed much. The ancient mythology is so interesting and says so much about our psyche - which is why I guess Jung plumbed the depths of those early stories to discover foundational elements of our humanity.
Thank you so much for the beginning of this distillation on socialism. I am thankful for you well-read men! I had almost forgotten about Plato’s “Monitors”, much like our Oligarchs and censoring factions within our nation. I am looking forward to the next.
Delamer Duverus, in “The Golden Reed”, gave us a pattern for living in the City, a City of Mind, where nothing comes before God, in that everyone lives according to His will. He lays out the entirety of society. Some may think that living with His will is a force of His will, but we have found that it is not so. I had a painter friend who DD asked to paint us a mandala which had many facets of our understanding in it. It was to be a memorial to my late husband. When he finished the rather detailed project, which was immaculate except for one mistake, he said he had never had so much fun painting a project before. When we asked DD about the mistake, because the project was so beautiful and perfect, He chuckled and said, “No one is perfect but God.”
It is not my intention to usurp your essays, Winston, so feel free to delete this. I am compelled of the Spirit to share. I can post the entire chapter if you want.
The Power of the Cube (Cube of Minds)
There can be no rich, or poor in the City of Duverus, for the wealth of the City is its people. An individual’s personal wealth will be according to their time and effort in behalf of the City and its inhabitants, but the Earth gives of its goodness so that life may survive, therefore; we do not have the right to possess that which the Earth has given freely, or set a price on the daily bread of the individual within the City.
Every inhabitant will receive his daily bread, and his place of refuge in return for his presence in the City, and nothing else shall be asked of him in return. If any inhabitant of the City desires more than his place of refuge and his daily bread, he may spend of his personal wealth in exchange for his desires. His only personal wealth will be his time, but no inhabitant can spend more time for his desires than he has to offer, and only the time that is his can he spend. An hour is an hour, and a day is a day, therefore; an hour is equal to an hour, and no more.
The value of an hour for internal exchange will be determined by the wealth of the City, divided by the sum of the time of all the inhabitants; but no value can be set upon an inhabitant’s daily bread or place of residence. The value of time credit past can be used as an exchange for working time present, to charge against an individual’s account, and placed to the account of the one who performs the work, according to time spent at the labor. No inhabitant can therefore, have more time accredited to his account than he has spent in the City, and only the time he has spent in labor, for the City, or for other inhabitants of the City; and no inhabitant can transfer his credits for time spent to anyone in the City for any other reason than work performed in his behalf. The reason for this should be obvious. The wealth of the individual is determined by the wealth of the City, and although some may have a claim to a larger portion of the City’s wealth, due to their own efforts, all of the provocations that lead men into temptation are removed, and those traits that lead men into discord become unnecessary and ridiculous, for there is nothing to be gained by them except laughter, when they are intended to provoke.
In the City of Duverus men will work because they shall enjoy their work, and enjoy the beauty of the creations of their own hands, and there will be no work done in fear, or vanity. Men will work because they will feel the need to create and because they feel the need to give of themselves to the City of which they are a part.
Jenny this is an interesting proposal but I'm not sure how it would work practically. Say I'm an emergency department surgeon. You come into the emergency room in cardiac arrest from the ambulance. I'm called in as the team are prepping you on the table - after my many years of experience and countless hours of study I know exactly what to do and instruct my team to do what has to be done to bring you back from the brink of death. Thankfully the revival is successful, you are alive - I was there for all of 15 minutes before being called away to another emergency.
That's 15 minutes of time value.
Assuming the value of time is fixed, which it seems to be in the above theory, then I've just been credited with a quarter hour time value.
Now I happen to be working away from my home town and am staying at a hotel. At that hotel, when I left for the hospital, a maid came in and made my bed, it took her 15 minutes. It should have taken her 5 minutes but she is 17, new to the job, and has absolutely no experience whatsoever.
Regardless, she has now been credited with a quarter hour time value.
So the expert emergency department doctor who has just saved a life is rewarded equally to the beginner maid who made his bed.
...and me, reading and responding to your comment is also rewarded the same - unless I think about the question for another 15 minutes and respond, thus doubling my income from the emergency department doctor.
I'm certain there are some socialist who would say this is absolutely just - total equality - but is it really?
Are both jobs required in the City? Is the garbage man's job just important as yours though less technical and skilled? Do you like what you do? Do you do what you do just for the money because in our system of broken fiscal policies you must? In the City of Mind life is not about keeping our head above the water financially. We do what we do under God's guidance because He knows us better than we know ourselves, and we will enjoy it, it will contribute to our community, and it will satisfy us. In The Gospel of Thomas it says, "Jesus says, 'My yoke is excellent, my authority sweet, and you will find rest for yourselves.'" He keeps us free from fear, hate, shame, greed, lust, guilt and prejudice. Thus, we have peace in our community.
One day Bab the prophet gathered the adult members of the Family together and said that in the future in the City of Mind there would be a crystal. Crystals hold memories and understanding. He said if someone began to stray in his thinking or doing which would lead to committing a sin, then the Crystal would help reign him in and help him to change his course. The people in the Family didn't like the thought of a crystal being able to control them and they discharged the idea. I wasn't a part of the family at the time, but my husband told me the story and I realized that this "crystal" was already into play. It was our conscience.
Interesting.
I guess I take a polar opposite view of humanity and society, to Marx and Plato. I think humanity is anarchic at it's core, that we are self-organizing based on necessity, like nature striving after diversity, that we don't need anyone to rule over us. But control freaks seem better at writing about their vision for society.
The hierarchy sounds similar to Edo-era Japan - aristos, shoguns, artisans and peasants
Is there any definition of socialism, or comparison of socialism vs. communism, vs. fascism, vs. monarchy etc. It seems that Shafarevich saw all different systems as the same.